The Scottish Football Show

Craig Brown and his Hamper Boys

• The Scottish Football Show • Season 4 • Episode 9

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0:00 | 46:16

Andrew's back! Just in time to discuss possibly the most disappointing end to season ever? Well, unless you're a Celtic fan, of course...

Yes, Hearts fell at the final hurdle with an all-too-familiar name on the Premiership trophy once again. But we discuss what actually makes a deserving champion...

And with the Scotland World Cup squad announcement imminent, we try to determine who had the stronger XI - our current national team or the crew from 1998 who last represented the Tartan Army on the biggest stage.

RUNNING ORDER:
00:00: INTRO: Welcome back, Andrew

01:36: BROKEN HEARTS: Is it the most disappointing end to a season ever? And what now for Hearts going forward after getting so close?

11:37: CELTIC AGAIN: The Hoops made it over the line in first place. But what makes a champion deserving of the title?

20:17: PITCH INVASIONS: The ugly scenes that marred the end of the match at Parkhead might have repercussions that go far beyond the end of the season...

29:54: SCOTLAND: As we gear up for the announcement of Steve Clarke's squad for the tournament this coming summer, we discuss which squad - 1998 or 2026 - is better.

45:39: OUTRO

SPEAKER_04

Hello and welcome to the Scottish Football Show. Here's what's coming up: Celtic break arts and our champions again. Pitch invasions, it's time to stop. And Scotland have a squad announcement. Yes, I'm Andrew Slavin, your host for this wonderful Scottish football show episode, which is going to be fun and we're going to cheer you up because there's a lot of very sad people in Scotland right now. But not Celtic. They are very happy, their fans are happy, and probably most of them don't care what's going on, they're still partying. But joining me for this show, we have Finlay Marks and Laura Brannon. They're very happy to be with me, aren't you, Finley?

SPEAKER_03

Oh, ecstatically so, mate.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah, and Laura, you're really happy to talk about football. You love football even now.

SPEAKER_01

As always.

SPEAKER_04

Oh, wow. Wow. I really thought I'd rouse you up there. Um, for anyone who doesn't know Laura Brown and she does love talking about football, but right now she hates football. She hates everything about it because the story has been ruined by her arch nemesis, Celtic.

SPEAKER_01

Baby Jill has been crushed. We're all sad.

SPEAKER_04

Or lots of football fans across the globe. Yeah, they're not they're not happy. But as I said in my intro, Celtic fans are happy. The greatest ending to a Scottish football season, let's take away all the negative around it. It's still one of the greatest title races I've witnessed in my lifetime. And the story could have been better, don't get me wrong. However, it shouldn't take away the fact that Scottish football has been put in front of so many people's hearts and minds now than it never had been in the past. People in England were talking about it, people across the globe are talking about it, and that's what we want. We want eyes and ears on Scottish football. It was a great title race. But how are you feeling, Laura? I'll go to you.

SPEAKER_01

Um it's been a dark weekend. Uh I don't think a result has actually crushed me as much for quite a long time. It's strange because I'm not a Celtic or a Hearts fan, and I just got so swept up in the whole excitement and fairy tale of the storyline. You know, like I just get kind of carried away with good football stories, and yeah, it's um sometimes I get too emotionally involved in football and I don't like it because very often it doesn't go the way I want it to. I remember having a dark weekend on the couch after the Scotland England game when it was too each, and it kind of felt like that again. It was just it was the the the feeling of being so close and it being snatched away right at the end, which I again is it's very strange to say considering neither of them are my are my team, but it was just I I feel like everyone just got swept up in it just that little bit more than everyone expected themselves to, and it just feels horrible right now. It's just I feel so sorry for Hearts. The the the shots of the Hearts players walking off the bus in Edinburgh after the game is actually heartbreaking to see, and yeah, like you can congratulate Celtic, and I'm sure we'll get to that in due course. But Hearts have had the most unreal season, everyone wrote them off. I think early doors. I I know I was laughing at yeah, yeah, yeah, sure. You know, it'll be done by Christmas, it'll be done by Easter, and they proved us all wrong. And I had to laugh at what was it, Kel McGregor said, Oh, everyone wrote us off. Uh no, mate, no. You you you win every single trophy going uh no one's right in Celtic Off. It was hearts that were the ones that were defying everyone's beliefs, and I'm just really gutted for them. Really, really sad for them.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah, it's I think I think you know that that is one thing that you've been consistent about, Finn, is even though you know all the stars just felt like it was aligning for hearts, but you were con and so was Laura too, consistent in the idea that well, Celtics should still be favourites.

SPEAKER_03

And I think that there's no reason that that should have changed really at any point of the season or change going forward. For for the reasons that we shared. So when we when we came back after our own split, if you want to call it that, uh kind of going into the final weeks of the season after the last international break, I I think you at that stage, maybe is a a bit of a warning to to you, Andrew, if you're ever thinking about putting a bet on something. You said I think your words were it's Rangers title to lose. And um both of us were especially myself, very thought that that was a very bold statement to make considering they hadn't even been top of the table at any point by that point in the season. Um I'm with Laura. I think taking off any of the hats of who we support or don't support for a second, when you're just looking at this as a footballing story, imagine it's not happening in Scotland. I think for the most part, not just in football, but I think in sport in general, there is something so alluring about the story of the underdog. And um it's the same, it's like a it's a really human story. You know, it's the reason why movies like Rocky or something like that are so so well loved because everyone loves the story of an underdog, and an underdog triumphing is the best thing. And I didn't mean to pull that analogy out, but Rocky ultimately is kind of a story about failure but doing the best you can. The first Rocky film, he doesn't win the fight, but he goes the distance, and that's that's what he was looking to do. And weirdly, that's kind of what hearts have done, which is I mean, if they'd won the title, it's it's the it's the most incredible sporting story in our country, I would argue ever, because of the way the game has moved over the last 40 years, which is in terms of finance, no team other than Rangers or Celtics should ever win it. Like that that that's kind of the bottom line. And and that's why not to be too derogatory about Celtics' achievement, because they they've done it again. Like this, this is what I'd said months ago. They've got the muscle memory of champions. But I think for Hearts to take it to essentially what was it, three minutes of the season to go, and they were still they they were in it, they were winning it at that point. That is the incredible achievement. And again, like I'd said, this will provide hardly any sucker to Hartz fans at the moment. Like, this is the most gut-wrenching defeat imaginable. But I'd said again a couple of weeks ago, I was like, even if they don't go on to take the title, there is so much for them to look forward to going forward under Tony Bloom's stewardship and what they can see what they're capable of now. And I think they'll go on from strength to strength, and this is what we want in the Scottish game. When people say, Oh, we were looking for hearts to break the duopoly, they're starting to do that. They've literally finished second, they've split the old firm this season, and if they can find this consistency, this way of playing year on year, I think it's a really exciting time potentially for Scottish football.

SPEAKER_04

I think it is a really exciting time because also you've had Rangers come out in recent days and say they're going to strengthen their squad. So Rangers are going to spend money this summer. Celtic have a massive overhaul to do. They potentially may have to find another manager. There's no real detail on if Martin O'Neal would want to stay on, which I think I can't imagine Martin O'Neal. He's 74 years old. He doesn't need to, but he obviously loves being at Celtic. Um, but the amount of players that's going to be a huge overhaul. Do Hart's need to have a massive overhaul? Probably not. They might lose some key players from this season, like Kitsarides and Claudio Braga. But if that Jamestown Analytics keep picking out a couple of gems, they just need to sprinkle it across uh their squad. And next season could just be as strong. Um, but they they will also have European competition as well.

SPEAKER_01

The difference here is though that this season is such a missed opportunity because of how poor Celtican Rangers were. And that is why it was we always talk about the the price difference and the value and everything, and oh hearts don't have the money to win a league, blah blah blah blah blah. They a huge part of the reason was they were consistent with their squad as it was, and also Celtican Rangers were not consistent. If Celtic and Rangers pile money into their squads this summer, they're only gonna get better. If hearts don't do the same, they're not going to be able to keep up. And right now, are they gonna do the same? We're debating whether or not they're gonna do the same. There's no clarity on that. So I I just is it ever gonna happen again? There's there's these positive stories of oh, this is just a start, this is a long-term thing, but I don't know. I just feel like it's such a missed opportunity, and that's why it's so frustrating.

SPEAKER_03

There's definitely something in that, Laura, because I think I again, as we'd said a number of weeks ago, I think it's not to diminish Hart's achievement, but really the only way that a team outside the old firm could challenge was if both halves of the old firm had a poor season as well. It's like you need all that compounding context.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03

In the same way, again, not to diminish Leicester City's achievement when they won the Premier League a decade ago, but that needed to happen when they had the season of their lives, and all of the other top six clubs were in transition seasons. Like it was the perfect storm for that to happen. And I don't know, you're talking about like it's just money. I I don't know if that's necessarily the case. Rangers literally spent the most of all three of any club in the country this summer and were awful. So I I think the the the one thing that again I think holds out hope for hearts is Tony Bloom with the analytics, he didn't go in and do, and Rangers are a good example, go in and rip everything up and try and do it in one summer. What he did is he looked at what he had, which was a very accomplished manager, not a manager, I think Tony Bloom's data would ever say that's the perfect man for hearts. But he was like, he isn't he's a really good experienced manager, knows the local environment. They had this core of really brilliant professionals that had been at that club for a long time that knew what it was to play for hearts. Shanklin, Gordon, Halkitt, even non-Scots like Devlin or Beningame, like really good pros. And then they grafted onto that with the likes of Claudio Braga or Kabore and Kesaridas. I I think that's that's the model of how you do it. And I think there is overhaul to come at Celtic this summer, Andrew. I think you're right. And who knows what what's going to happen there. There's chat about does Danny Rule even stay given the end to the season, the total collapse that they've ended the season pretty much at the same points difference that he took over. So there's a lot of stuff to to go on this summer. I I do genuinely think that there's some there's there is hope for hearts there that might not have been there before with the league challenge and uh under Burley and and others, and was that 2006, and even you know, when they pushed him close in '98 as well. Yeah, I think there is genuine cause for hope for hearts.

SPEAKER_00

I've said it time and time again, for a jobby team, we broke some good records.

SPEAKER_04

And so let's just take a moment to kind of, you know, it's it's probably been a really dark sort of couple of days in Scottish football because of the scenes after Celtic winning the title. But if we just put that part of that to one side and actually just almost just congratulate Celtic and what they were able to achieve in the end of it. Now we've we've highlighted finances, but they still had to do it, and it was the hardest league to win for my lifetime that I can remember. We've witnessed so many leagues be finished early on in the season in March and stuff like that. For this to go to the last day was amazing for football fans because of the spectacle. But for Celtic to churn that out under Martin O'Neill, who again, you know, it's hard to not like Martin O'Neill, right? There's been there's always managers that you're like, I can't he stand. Martin O'Neill's just like everyone's lovely granddad, and he wears a tracksuit. It's they're funny. It's an incredible achievement, Laura.

SPEAKER_01

I think you have to look at all three managers over the course of the season and and not just look at Martin O'Neill. He pulled them out, he did, but the season already started with Brendan Rogers and Wilford Nancy. They all contributed, they all put points on the board, some maybe more than others. But um Martin O'Neill did come in, restore some form of um the opposite of chaos. Um he calmed it down, he got them back on track again, he got the mentality in the right place again, and um stopped them being a laughing stock as well. And yeah, he he especially towards the the last couple of games, you felt they were really getting into gear. Um it was like right pressure's on now, and sell to do what's cell to do the best. They grind it out, they they pull out the results out of the bag at the last minute, they they know how to get things over the line. Um I I I don't think I would say that they they deserve the title when you you you put it down on like you you compare over the course of the whole season. I don't. I think I think hearts absolutely deserve the title for what they've done this season. I don't think just because Celtic finish with more points than Hearts, it means that they're deserved winners. I don't. I think they absolutely crawled over the line. The three of the last four goals were awarded because of VAR decisions. Um, they absolutely crawled over the finish line like wounded soldiers, and I don't think they deserved it at the end of the day, but they got themselves into that position, and at Christmas time it didn't look like that was ever going to be possible. So, yes, Martin Neal does deserve credit, but it's all within context.

SPEAKER_04

That's really interesting. No, it's so what what constitutes a deserved title victory? What makes a deserved winner? What what are the categories? What are the what what makes a winner that's deserving of the of that accolade?

SPEAKER_01

Well, this is this is the the one of the lowest points tally Celtics ever had in terms of winning a league. So it's not by any stat Celtic standards, it's not it's not up there with what their normal achievements are. Whereas we've just talked about Hearts and their finances and where they are in terms of the the premiership and the context of things, they they shouldn't be up there when you look at it on paper. But they they have been consistently, they've been top of the league since September. Um, with if you've been top of the league since September, that kind of it's kind of a no-brainer. You deserve to kind of be rewarded for that.

SPEAKER_04

But the the the the deserving, the deserving winner of it, the deserving or the team who finishes top of the table at the end of the season is the reason why they deserve the title. What's what are the other categories? I don't really understand.

SPEAKER_01

Every single week my friends who are support Celtic are texting me saying, we are awful, we do not deserve this. This is the worst season ever. It is a consistent message in the group chats this season. So if the fans that are watching them week in, week out are saying that this is dire, then it's not a good season. And like we can put it down to like Celtic can have good seasons and bad seasons, they're always going to walk away with a trophy at the end of it, regardless because it's Celtic. But they can put it down as that was actually a bad season. We can actually admit that and go, fine, okay, you you walked away with the trophy, but it wasn't a good season in your in your terms, in your context of things.

SPEAKER_03

But that that doesn't mean that doesn't mean they don't deserve the title though, Laura. I said this again a couple of weeks ago as well. We we kind of briefly chatted on this, Laura, that the notion of deserving something like I'm I'm whether it's fair or not, and that's maybe what you're more angling at, is it fair that they won it? And in the grand context of Hartz achievement and the performance over the season, contrasted with Celtics, you're like, it feels unfair. It it feels like it would have been fair if Hartz had won it. But in terms of deserving, and I I'll never change my viewpoint on this. The team that wins the title is the one that has won the most amount of points over the determined course of the season, which is 38 games. If you are top by hook or by crook, by fire decisions or whatever, you deserve the title because you're the team that's finished top of the pile. It doesn't matter if you're sprinting over the finish line with miles between you and second place, or if you're literally collapsing, bloodied, bruised, and you're winning it by a ball hair. Like that's that's that's why league football is the ultimate um leveler, because it's not, and it's why we love I'd said this at the time as well, why we love cup football, because you do get the chance of the romance, the upset, the getting the good team on the bad day. But the point of a league is like consistency over 38 games. Did you get more points than any other team? You did, or you got the same amount of points, did you get more goals? Like it's these fine margins, and that's that to me, then de facto, you have to be deserving of the league title if you're the one that finishes top of the ladder. Whether or not it's fair or not, is another discussion, I think. And it does feel unfair.

SPEAKER_04

I think that's the and that's yeah, I think I think I think that's I I totally agree with that, Finn. I think that makes a lot of sense. Because when you think about it, you know, I've watched Celtic and I've watched Rangers, and they've both been dreadful. But hearts had moments in the season where they were like eight points clear, six points clear, but they never ran away with it. And it has led to the reason why it's an amazing story and title race in Scottish football, but they never ran away with it. So by the same token, we're all celebrating and saying hearts have been great and all that stuff, but in the end, they weren't good enough. So it's one of those where do we want any one team to be fantastic and just unstoppable? It's it's it's it's so difficult to just look at a wonderful season and for still all of us to be miserable and sad about it. Like we should just be going, wow, what a season! Aye, okay. Annoying that Celtic won it again. Yeah, whatever. It was still a great season, and Celtic should be celebrated for winning it in however way they won it, and Hart should be celebrated from taking them to the last day of the season.

SPEAKER_03

I do I do think it's and uh people might just accuse it of bias or sero grapes or something because because of the team I support. I I don't think even Celtic fans should be asking that people celebrate what they've achieved this season because it doesn't understand that can be totally accepting of like they were the better team over the course, but I think um the celebration this season the celebration for me this season is is things like well is his heart's going a distance, it's somebody genuinely incredibly challenging the established club in the country, clubs and things as well like Motherwell. I would actually say Motherwell have been the best footballing team in the country. Yes. They have they they didn't get to challenging for a league title except for about 15 minutes, and was it February where everybody got a bit excited? But um, yeah, there have been there have been positive things this season.

SPEAKER_00

I'm just gonna say Dunferman fans, Dunferman, well done tonight. You pumped this Neto audit.

SPEAKER_04

I was gonna drag us on to the the the difficult part that we just never really want to see in in our game, which is what has kind of deflected on what could be a good which what should be a good story for Celtic, and that is we see another pitch invasion which is just absolutely disgusting to see, and you can understand the emotion um pouring out of fans and how it how it all happened. There are things that you can understand and get, but we have said this till we are blue in the face. Pitch invasions should not be happening at all at any level of the game. And yes, we see it in lower league football, and kind of can be like, well, it's the first time they've ever been promoted, or it's the first Ever League trophy, like there's some level of understanding, but it is creeping into the game so much more now because it can sometimes look good on TV or whatever, and it looks like it's a great laugh, but it's getting really dangerous now, it's getting really silly to the point where you've got a club coming out in hearts saying that their players were felt unsafe, and nobody should ever be unsafe in their work. And it is the question now what is a justified punishment to a club when it's not the club's fault, or although you could get into the idea of maybe they should have had more stewards, all that stuff. It's the it's It's the minority of fans that go on and ruin it. But what would end this? Because I think we're all in agreement, it has to end, Laura.

SPEAKER_01

I I don't even think it's a recent thing. I think it's been going far, far too long. There was a just actually think. I mean, look, there's there's annoying things about modern football that like are really bad. Things like we've had a spout of um like kids running on the pitch trying to get selfies with players. Um, really, really bad. Uh, we've had like even just stupid things like kids holding up strips, going, Oh, can I have your shirt? No, fuck off. Right. But the actual player, like the fans are running on the pitch. This happened like about 10 years ago. I remember Celtic Winnie League at Party Thistle, and they didn't get the trophy or they didn't get their celebrations because the fans came on the pitch and it just ruined the whole aftermath. It is that that was a while back, it's not a recent thing, but it's getting worse and worse, and it becomes this thing now where it's a forced show of happiness. I'm sorry, it's it's so fake, it is so unnecessary. There's nothing about your happiness at celebrate a goal that means that something in your brain goes, I have to be on that pitch right now. I'm going to charge forward. I'm sorry. That is not a thing that happens in your brain. Scotland qualified for the World Cup for the first time in 28 years, and not a single person ran on the pitch. It is just not needed. Celebrate where you are with the people you're with.

SPEAKER_03

That was that was the example I was gonna I was gonna go with as well, Laura. And the other one that was at the top of my mind was uh when Rangers uh beat Leipzig in the the semi-final of the Europa League and got to the final, no pitch invasion either. So the fans in our country are entirely capable of celebrating incredible, euphoric, amazing moments um for our teams and and for our country without the need to be like right, pile on to the pitch. I I I I get like just there are it it's difficult because you you where do you draw the line? I I I I think you don't want to police celebrations. And I think like it was I remember was it earlier on this season? I think it was when Arusho scored a late, late, late winner for Celtic at uh Killy, was it rugby park? And he runs into the away end and like everything's spilling over a bit, and it's like this the scenes are like you know, uh uh so passionate and stuff. And I feel like in that there's a genuine overflow. I look at when them different.

SPEAKER_01

That's an overflow, that's not forcing yourself onto a pitch.

SPEAKER_03

Totally. And and then I think when Stenny won their um it was the first trophy in our history, was it last season? I I and I don't I don't think the vast majority of people going to see Stennis Muir are gonna be like, right, Jimmy, right, that's I I know I've got a gammy leg, but I'm gonna do my bit and run on you ready, all right. It's I don't think they're gonna be doing that. I think there's a genuine overspill of just like I can't I can't believe it's like this euphoria and stuff. But I agree, it's like where do you draw the line? And you have to do it somewhere, and I think you have to almost go so strict one way in order to be like almost zero tolerance of like any pitch invasion, you will be sanctioned. And then it it maybe if you get to a case where there is a pitch invasion, if Scotland win the World Cup or something like that, and we're all like ah, like you know, going out, um you'd be like, fine, take the fine, whatever, whatever. But I think it's yeah, you you can't this can't be an acceptable way of going on. And I think especially when you get into like the Hearts players were concerned for their safety. It happened at the Celtic Motherwell game because of the nature of Celtic's late winner that um they all spilled onto the pitch. That prevented then motherwell um players being able to do for their own safety, the you know, going around the walk around far part to thank the supporters for their support during the course of the season. So it's it's impacting on on other clubs, other fans and supporters in their experience. I don't think that's fair. When it's impacting potentially the safety of players, it's got to be zero tolerance.

SPEAKER_04

You you can't have and you've had and you've had Celtic come out and um and Celtic have apologised for that. But at the same time as well, there was a considerable amount of Celtic fans just booing the Celtic fans that were on the field as well. Like there are fans that are gonna get annoyed at this, and they were that the the the majority of Celtic fans were booing what they were seeing on the pitch because even they knew themselves of the potential ramifications of this. You know, there was a lot of a lot of fans in that ground that thought because a lot of them thought that there was still part of the game to finish as well.

SPEAKER_01

Well, there was there literally was a game to finish, and it wasn't.

SPEAKER_04

Well, it was Don Don Robertson has said he's blown the whistle um so so officially, and uh it is well no it's official because that's what he's put in his report, so it is a it's just a fact. So um what what what need what we need to know now though Laura is what will be the outcome of it of all of this? What will be the outcome?

SPEAKER_01

I think Celtic should be docked three points and Hart should be given a three-nil win.

SPEAKER_04

Okay, so let's be let's be realistic then and say what should what should happen in the summer to Celtic as uh should they be banned of having fans on the opening day of the season? Flag day.

SPEAKER_01

I don't think I don't think that I don't think that does anything. And flag day is such a nothing thing anyway. I don't think fans are gonna be like, oh no, I'm going to miss the flag being unfurled. Oh no, it's such a big dramatic event I've seen 15 times in my life.

SPEAKER_04

What about 10 home games next season?

SPEAKER_01

No, I just I don't think banning fans is the answer to any problem. I think clubs should be um forced to police better. I think part of this is the fact that the the police decided to um stand in front of 1% of the crowds and cover up the entire Heart's End, which had about 700 people in it, and forgot all about the fact that the rest of the stadium wasn't covered properly. So part of this has to be looked into the the stewarding and the police issues and how Celtic actually run events as a club. I don't think it has to be that the I mean, fine, if you want to track down the individual fans because you have the means to do so, albeit fine, punish them as individuals, but there's no no need to punish the collective and start banning the supporters and closing sections of the ground. That doesn't achieve anything, and it's it's kind of a dangerous path to start going down, to be honest.

SPEAKER_04

Is there any precedent that we know of in this country? Or anywhere in in football for that matter.

SPEAKER_01

Well, I mean, you just look at what Slavia and Sparta Prague, what happened there? I mean, the fans invaded the pitch and then they decided to literally award a 3-0 win to the other team. It's there's rules in place in countries like like like Czech Republic that actually look out for these things. But here it seems to just be a case of well, we'll wait and see what happens and then we'll deal with it depending on how much pressure we get from the individuals involved. It's this this country's a lawn to itself. So so the question then goes on to the SFA, um sorry, the SPFL the SPFL literally put out the SPFL literally put out a statement reminding people that it was illegal to enter the pitch in England and Wales, but do not actually call for it to be illegal in Scotland. It's such a wishy-washy approach. Like grow a set and actually say something useful here, guys. They're so soft. And I don't I if no, I'm I if I speak, you know, I just I can't I can't. If I speak, I get honestly, like we're we're all channeling out in a merino right now.

SPEAKER_04

Right, here we go. It's fun time for Laura and Finn and me, but mostly Laura, because all she cares about is the Scotland national team in her whole life. That's the only thing she cares about. Uh but yeah, Steve Clark is as we record this on Sunday night, so the squad's gonna be announced on Tuesday, and God knows when this podcast will go out. So it may have happened already, but uh let's just talk about who we hope at the moment will be in that squad. Uh and Laura, the floor is yours because this is your favourite favourite time on this podcast.

SPEAKER_01

Do you know? I don't actually think there's gonna be many surprises um when it comes down to the 26-man squad. We we know that Steve Clark is loyal to his the players that have got us there. I think there's maybe three or four kind of maybes that might be a case of oh, okay. Um and potentially maybe some young boys from the the under 21s that are kind of used as hamper boys, he might promote maybe one or two to kind of give them that experience. I don't know if that's maybe something he can do that's not part of the 26-man squad and just kind of you know, there as a kind of runner almost as a helper. But I like there's I mean, I can I pulled together a whole big list of maybes and do you want me to run through them? See what you guys think?

SPEAKER_04

I want to pick up on something you said there. I don't think I've heard that phrase before. Did you say a couple of hamper boys?

SPEAKER_01

Hamper boys, yeah.

SPEAKER_04

What is that?

SPEAKER_01

They took a couple of hamper boys in '98, and it was it was Mark Burchill and Keegan Parker, I think, was the other one. What's hamper boys? They literally carry the hampers that have the kits in them. I'm sorry, they're just there as young kids that are like there to get the experience and soak it all up, but be like the boot boys essentially.

SPEAKER_03

It sounds drought today. To be honest, Andrew, I'm with you. I'd I've never heard hamper boys either, but thank you, Laura, because now we've got the name of our episode right there. I am pretty sure this is a couple of hamper boys.

SPEAKER_01

I'm pretty sure I got this from Craig Brown's World Cup diary in '98. Because I don't know, like watch this 20 million times. I'm sure Craig Brown said this at some point in that. That's what I've got it from.

SPEAKER_04

Craig Brown and the Hamper Boys. One of his weekend band titles. Uh wow, interesting. So actually, so Laura, I would put you on the spot and say, who who do you think these Hamper Boys will be?

SPEAKER_01

Oh no, no, that's not, I don't think they're gonna be part of the 26 Mine squad, to be fair. That's a bit harsh. Um, no, I think the bigger question is around some of the maybes. So just like like for the for example, Ryan Porteus, does he get anywhere near that? Someone like Ross Stewart. You you've had Tommy Conway now who's out out injured, he's been confirmed not available. Surely this is Ross Stewart's time, for example. I I kind of think it might be down to him or George Hearst rather than both of them. So there's a kind of debate there. You've got boys who've actually had excellent seasons but are realistically never really around the international squads. So you've got likes of like Stuart Finley, um, Steve McDonnell, Paul McGinn, all outstanding, Elliot Watt as well. Um, if you're wanting to look at kind of like you said even more for hearts, Craig Halcott, unfortunately, another one already been ruled out. But these are boys that have not yet had the kind of call-ups, the experience. I just don't think that Steve Clark's going to go for boys he's not picked before in the past, so you can kind of say, yeah, they're having outstanding seasons. I don't think they're going to be in the squad though. Um, and then you've got some more kind of like controversial ones. Uh, Andrew, Ollie McBurney, um Ollie Burke. Yeah, like even Kevin Nesbitt as well. Um, Kieran Bowie scored against Italian champions today. Um, I I think he's got to be in there, surely. I I would think they would be Ross Stewart and Kieran Bowie as your two additional strikers behind Adams, Dykes, and Shankland, surely. I is that feel like that's a kind of given? I don't know.

SPEAKER_04

I don't I don't know. I I think it's a little bit different. I I like the shout of Kieran Bowie. I think he's done alright since he's gone to Verona, who I'm not 100% sure if they've been potentially relegated, um, but they are fighting for the top flight status. But Bowie's Bowie's scored at least four or five goals since he's joined in January, he's and he's been starting every single game. So he's not um he has a decent shout, Laura. Um I don't know about you, Finn. Do you think anyone else squeezes in for you?

SPEAKER_03

The one for me, in terms in terms of form and experience, just looking down the list, I I think Ollie I I Ollie McBurney for me would be a shout. I think I'd said in in recent pods, basically, I think we're kind of covered in midfield. I think we're absolutely fine in that department. For me, it's defensively and an upfront, especially for the kind of like remaining positions. I I think it's kind of almost the material of what we're thinking who's had the best seasons. I think you're absolutely right, Laura. I think Clark's got his boys, and I don't think he's going to start chucking caps and potential World Cup places around right now. Um, I think if you've not been involved in the national team setup to this point, I doubt you'd have much hope of making the the long list or anything else. But in terms of the seasons they've had, McBurney, I think this is a personal preference as well. I think I would rather go with Max Johnson or even Stephen O'Donnell as cover-out right back than Tony Ralston. But again, Ralston's a Clark boy, and uh he I think he'll be a shoe-in for that place. So I don't think there's going to be a huge amount. I think upfront, yeah, it is an interesting question in the backup terms of form and uh trying to give you something a bit different. I think that's what you need to think of as well, like in terms of the the makeup. It's all very well taking someone who's had a great season, but if they're kind of just a like for like in another type of striker or or defender or fullback or whatever, I'm like, kind of what's the point? What you want is a squad, you want options. So, from that point of view, I think maybe Kieran Bowie is the more interesting of the options. Um, whether or not near the top of Clark's list again remains to be seen.

SPEAKER_04

His his goal, if you haven't seen his goal against Inter, it's really cute, really cute finish, just kind of sort of like almost on the edge of the box, but just passes it into the far corner. That's just a confident, uh, cool head. I think he could be really good. He's going to be a good player, there's no doubt about it. So, shall we move on to a bit of fun now? Obviously, the last time we were in the World Cup was in 1998. So, shall we pick some players who we'd rather have in the Scotland squad compare the two teams?

SPEAKER_01

So starting lineup, rather than yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_04

So if we said if we start with the goalkeeper, yes, this comes down to this is a proper pub debate.

SPEAKER_01

This is where it stemmed from. Um, because when I was breaking this down, it's it's difficult because if the for the formations aren't exactly the same. So we're we're doing this loosely here, but let's let's let's do it quickly because we're running out of time, but let's quickly run through them.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah, so go goalkeeper, uh Jim Leighton or Craig Gordon?

SPEAKER_01

Gordon for me.

SPEAKER_04

Gordon for me, yeah. It's no debate.

SPEAKER_03

Gordon wins what's nice is there's the symmetry. Both of them were about 312 years old by the time we went to a world satellite. But I would take a 312-year-old Craig Gordon over a 312-year-old Jim Leighton any day of the week.

SPEAKER_04

I totally agree. We can't take world, we can't not go to a World Cup without a 40-year-old. Um Boyd or Hickey?

SPEAKER_01

Boyd.

SPEAKER_04

Ooh. I I think Hickey is a better footballer than Boyd. I would take Hickey.

SPEAKER_03

This one's borderline for me. Uh it would just depend the day you ask. Um, no, genuinely, because I think Tommy Boyd was an excellent player and a good player for Scotland as well. Um just tipping towards towards Hickey.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah, okay. Hickey has it, Laura. Get up, you Hendry or Henry.

SPEAKER_03

Colin Hendry or Jack Hendry. Laura? Colin. Finn? Yeah, as much as I rate Jack Henry, it's got it's got to be Colin Henry. He's one of the best Scottish centre backs of the last 30, 40 years.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah, Braveheart definitely gets it, Colin Henry, no doubt about that. So that's currently 2-1 to class of 2026. Christian Daly or Scott McKenna? Christian Daly.

SPEAKER_01

Team full of Christian Daly's.

SPEAKER_04

It's gotta be Christian Daly. 2-2. Uh Calderwood or Robertson? Robert.

SPEAKER_03

Colin, nah, come on. It's gotta be Robert.

SPEAKER_04

You're joking, aren't you, Finn?

SPEAKER_03

One of the few positions where there's genuinely no debate. You'd have to be clinically insane to choose Colin Calderwood over Andy Robertson.

SPEAKER_04

Exactly. Um okay, so moving into midfield, Paul Lambert or Billy Gilmore? Laura, I've got I keep going to you first. Paul Lambert. Paul Lambert. Finn?

SPEAKER_03

Oh, both Champions League winning midfielders. Um again, this would just be on the date. I'd change my mind tomorrow. Today I'm gonna see Paul Lambert. Paul Lambert has all three of us in agreement.

SPEAKER_04

That's good. I'm just gonna say this out loud. I like that Laura just goes straight with an answer, but Finn goes with a full four sentences afterwards. Uh Craig.

SPEAKER_01

Finn was the one who said he's got no time and he needs to leave.

SPEAKER_04

He's the one giving us the analysis. Right, moving on, moving on, moving on. Craig Burley or Ryan Christie?

SPEAKER_01

Oh, Ryan Christie.

SPEAKER_04

Interesting. Craig Burley. Craig Burley. I'm going Ryan Christie. I think Christie's Christie's better than Burley. Uh fucking Jackson or Ben Dok? Oh my god, I forgot he was starting games, Jackson. I mean, that's a no-brainer. I'm just putting out there. It's definitely Doke. I mean, I've barely seen Doke play, but I'm going with Doke.

SPEAKER_03

Well, we barely saw Darren Jackson play for Scotland.

SPEAKER_01

Exactly.

SPEAKER_04

But this is a starting lineup, so it's fair. Darren Doke. Yeah, Doke it is. Uh Kevin Gallagher, Scott McTominay.

SPEAKER_03

Again, as good as as as Kevin Gallagher was, you can't. It's Miss McTominy. It's McSaucy. 100%. It's saucy.

SPEAKER_04

Saucy time. This is a bit tricky, this one. John Collins or John McGinn? Yeah. Battle of the Johns.

SPEAKER_01

If it wasn't for John Collins, I probably wouldn't watch football because of that moment in 98. But I I'm I'm going with no McGinn.

SPEAKER_04

John McGinn.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03

I think this is the hardest one of the lot. I love John. I love John McGinn so much. Super John McGinn. I think I'm going to say John Collins. I just think he was all around a better player than John McGuinn.

SPEAKER_04

Ah it is hard. It is hard. But I'm going to say John McGuinn. I think John, just because I think he's totally Yeah, he's come on, man. He's captain of Aston Villa. He's just got them to the Champions League. He's playing in a European final and he's been brilliant for Scotland. John Collins was also great for Scotland. But let's move on. Gordon Drury or Lyndon Dykes. Oh, the big one. Yeah, we know who Laura's going for, just because of pure looks.

SPEAKER_01

I d I actually don't think I've ever seen Jury play football. So I'm going to be perfectly honest here. I'm going to pick the only one I've ever seen playing as Dykes. And I probably am wildly wrong in that.

SPEAKER_03

Lindied by Lust, Laura Bryan. Uh this is going to upset Laura, but I'm going to go with Jukebox, Jukebox Jury. I I think he was great. Did he not play? You know how what was it, Europe against the rest of the world or Brazil versus the rest of the world? Like the day before the Gordon Jury was Scotland's representative of the teams that qualified for.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah. Well, Gordon Jury knew how to score with his head. He was brilliant. So it's jury for me. Dykes looks like he can be good in there, and he's absolutely guff. Um, so jury for me. I really hope we don't start with Dykes. I'm just gonna hand put that out there as well. Jeez, oh man.

SPEAKER_01

Six five to the 2026 team.

SPEAKER_04

6'5, that's tight. There was um there was I saw I saw uh tenants put out something on their socials about uh with Gordon Jury, Kevin Gallagher, and Ryan Christie and John McGinn together, and it was that thing of like it's either totally agree or totally disagree, and you s they were sliding their cans of tenants. It looked quite funny to be honest. Um, but it was that idea of like who's the better team, 98 or 2026 type of thing. And uh one of the things that was said was um who was the shoutier manager? And Judy said that he couldn't imagine Steve Clark being uh the type of manager that shouts at these players, and John McGinn was like Oh, he's absolutely rinsters. He's absolutely rinsters in the past. And it was the gate, the game against Belarus at halftime. And said they absolutely got Ryan Christie was like, I gave us an absolute doing.

unknown

It's quite funny.

SPEAKER_01

Very pleased to hear it.

SPEAKER_04

Right, well, that's us for another podcast. I'm back. So thanks for listening. The big man's back.

SPEAKER_01

For now.

SPEAKER_04

For now, yeah. Let's let's make sure I don't go awall again, eh? But only a few a few things to mark your cards before we go. Obviously, we should celebrate Stenhouse Muir getting promoted to the championship. I think it's back-to-back promotions. Unbelievable. From ex-Scotland Gary Naismith, who's leaving Stenhouse Muir, that I think you guys have spoken about in the past. He's going to Air United, so he's actually going to come up against Stenhouse Muir next season as a manager, but he leaves as a club legend. So good luck to Stenhouse Muir next season. The only kind of outstanding things in the league or in this Scottish football campaign are the fact that Partik Thistle will play St Mirin for the promotion sort of playoff or the what is it called, Laura?

SPEAKER_01

Well it's the it's the it's the it's a premiership playoff final.

SPEAKER_04

So it's Premiership playoff final, yeah.

SPEAKER_01

That's because it's it's always going to be the one fighting relegation versus the one pushing for promotion because it's the funny it's funny laid out one compared to the other playoffs.

SPEAKER_04

I just I get confused because Yeah, I get confused because I produced the National League uh down in England and it's always called the promotion final. So I always have that drilled into my head, so that's what confuses me. So Partick Thistle St. Miren, that'll be really interesting. And we've got the Scottish Cup final. So we've got Dunferlin who got knocked out of that playoff by Partick Thistle with still something to play. And Martin O'Neill and Celtic could earn a double this season. An absolutely fantastic campaign. Oh my god, I need my bed. We're recording this really late at night, and I've just got back from Glasgow, so I'm tired. Thanks, Laura. Thanks, Finn, thanks for listening. Go and do something else now. Goodness sake.